Mathematics, by definition, or by the definition it would have if anybody ever bothered to define it, underlies everything. It's like the Force, except that it has uncountably many sides, some light, some dark, and some we cannot possibly comprehend, let alone assign a color to. It underlies not merely our universe, but every conceivable universe. Indeed, it underlies infinitely many _in_conceivable universes, because after all, there are only countably many conceivable ones out there.

Wow.. that was deeeeep.. :)

All those people (& other things) running around in those other universes are equally convinced that their universe is the only one...& all of them (& we) are right. :) Then again, what about the universes with fundamentally different kinds of mathematics?

They fall in the "infinitely many" category.

and i thought i was the only one who wondered what would happen if math was fundamentally different...

Your alias wouldn't be.

Or math is our representation of what underlies everything, which can't be expressed directly...

Perhaps math is the most important and useful tool in the universe... We should worship it and give offerings to the mighty god of mathematics. Someone should start a religion.

Math, the Final Frontier...

Yeah, I was thinking about that. But to define math as a god is to limit its scope. Math is more of a metagod, defining the laws which permit all gods to exist. But on a higher level, math is about defining the ways in which laws may be defined, thus math is an Mē-god. And so forth.

As demonstrated by this thread, we pitiful humans cannot even express the degree to which mathematics is fundamental.

Well, actually we can...in the same way that we can express infinity without actually counting to infinity to prove its existence, we can express how mathematics is the underlying foundation of our existence.

What about "The Elegant Universe"? Has that been forgotten?

Oh, off-topic, I think "Don't use language you wouldn't hear on U.S. network television." in the posting guidelines should be changed to "Don't use language someone would find offensive.". Language you would hear on TV isn't always that appropriate (and it means we can't talk about math :D).

And what if math offends you? Hmm? It certainly offends me from time to time.

In fact, I think I'll be offended at your comment, and the insinuation that our statements are required to be somehow acceptable to everyone.

You cannot say anything meaningful without the possibility of offending someone who disagrees.

That's rather true, I'm afraid. It just goes to show the diversity of our world: everyone's sensitive to something.

I guess so. Sorry. I suppose "most people would find offensive" would be most appropriate.

Whoever voted math movies as their favorite genre truly has no life. Just imagine, you and your date are going to the movies, and you ask to see a math movies (lets call it "Factorial"). Then your hot blonde date asks "wow that sounds exciting." And by the time its over she finds out you were actually one of those chess geeks and forgets that one of her friends paid her to go out with you, but then she gives you a bad reputation and even teachers start to make fun of you. Truly you have no lives if you like math movies.

I'd say the guy going to see the math movie and enjoying it has more a life than the girl who has to be PAID to go see a movie with a nerd. Besides, some people just happen to like math. I'm not one of them, but I like programming, and if there was a movie about a group of people who made a game, and it was all about them programming, I'd watch it, because I'm sure those guys are a riot when they're talking about stuff in front of their terminals. Some people like guns, some people like romance, some people like science and some people like math. Doesn't mean they have no life. Heck, some people even post in forums at a calculator website. Compare that to going to movies, and going to a math movie sounds no worse. Don't you think?

He kinda makes a point...

I agree!

Right. Liking math isn't inherently different from liking programming, or reading, or computer games, or whatever. Stupid cultural bias...

Oh yeah, and I personally think it's much better to like math movies than to just blindly follow the crowd and *not* like someone else because they like math.

There's nothing wrong with going on a date with a nerd...
Really, I'd rather go on a date with a nerd to see a math movie or go to say, a museum than go to movies with some of the idiots I've dated...
Casey
P.S. I love a beautiful mind!