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Irked and Chafed
Posted by Nick on 19 January 2004, 07:11 GMT

I've become somewhat irked and chafed at some of the things that have gone on lately, so I feel a need to step in and talk to you folks again. Many of you are still cool, but there have been a few incidents of, shall we say, morally questionable saliency that have occurred.

I need to reiterate the importance of the rules for posting comments on ticalc.org's message boards. The frequency of trolls and lamer kiddies has become intolerably, painfully high for all of us to deal with here. Over the past three years, my experiences in watching the boards and hearing of what's happened on the in-house staff list has caused me to lose a lot of respect for the folks that post here.

Recently, a ticalc.org staff member has been physically threatened on the comment boards. Don't bother trying to check for who did it; the offending comment has been deleted. We do not take this lightly. I personally do not take this lightly. Keeping in mind what's happened to me previously, you would figure that nobody here would take this lightly. You would be right. We do not take this lightly. At the very least, it is against US law to make such threats; I don't know about Swedish law, but you get the idea. It's bad. This is bad. The entire situation here, in this place, in the place where I am currently typing, is patently, horribly, stupidly, impossibly, staggeringly, manyadjectively bad. We are a non-profit, private group of similarly-interested individuals who are doing this on our own time and our own dime; if you don't like it, either leave or do it yourself. The last thing anyone - "anyone" being us and our visitors both - needs is some phenomenally flaming, foppish moron instituting destructive discourse on our primary method of inter-community communication. That does a disservice to us, for wasting our time killing off troll posts; to the community, for having to wade through a low signal-to-noise ratio on the boards; and to yourself, for presenting your persona as, quite simply, an immature dumbass.

After what's gone on in my time at ticalc.org, I've lost faith in the human race enough that I feel like the comment was all talk. Still, it's worth reminding you happy folks that our rules for posting here are non-negotiable because they result in the comment boards existing for their intended purpose: as a constructive method of discussion about news in the TI world.

We have tried to tool these rules to be as reasonable as possible, allowing for people to communicate what they want and read what they can without trolling. Still, we're more than open to any positive criticism; we recognize that we're fallible people just like you, and we're more than open to communication. If you have any comments, questions, or suggestions, feel free to email the news editors. We ceaselessly strive, both behind the scenes and in front, to make this site as good as possible for our users, and hearing from you is critical to our goals.

I hope you understand why I wrote this. I offered to write this when questions came up about how to handle the recent happenings. You know how often I post things to ticalc.org (read: you haven't read me in a while, right? *grin*); I feel very strongly on this issue because it's directly changed my life - for better and for worse - but I'd rather a similar incident not happen to my friends and colleagues.

I hope you all seriously consider what I've said.

Later,
nickd

  Reply to this article


The comments below are written by ticalc.org visitors. Their views are not necessarily those of ticalc.org, and ticalc.org takes no responsibility for their content.


Re: Irked and Chafed
George Limpert  Account Info
(Web Page)

It's unfortunate, but I think the audience of the site in general has changed, too. In the beginning, the TI community was a community in the truest sense. The people that visited the site and gained from the services it had ot offer were interested in positively contributing something back. This meant maybe writing their own programs and releasing them to the community, perhaps helping newbies on IRC, or possibly helping out with one of the calculator websites. This is no longer the audience this site mostly is visited by.

The majority of users now don't care about the community. They care about being able to play games on their calculators in class or using them for quick help on a test. These users don't care about helping the community, contributing back, or even being a positive influence at all. They want what they want, and that's the only thing they understand.

I've ranted about this very subject myself on other sites. Unfortunately, no matter how often it's said, there's too many people in the community who only see us to serve them and if they don't get what they want, they're going to ruin it for everyone.

I agree with everything you've said, Nick. It's too bad that the people who will care already above such lameness, and the ones who don't care won't bother to read your article.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 08:32 GMT

Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Memwaster  Account Info

I have found the same. Even though I first came to this site to download games, I have gone to the trouble of learning ASM and are working on some major projects that (I hope), will majorly increase the programmability of the calculator.

Fortunately, the mailing lists are unaffected by this apathy.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 10:05 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
mike White Account Info

i am sorry that this off the subject but mem are you really running dos as your primary os?

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 14:51 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
JcN  Account Info

What's wrong with DOS? :)

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 15:00 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Matt Daubenmeyer  Account Info

where did whats wrong with dos come from?

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 01:41 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
no_one_2000_  Account Info
(Web Page)

Mike White's comment about DOS implied that he was surprised that he used DOS as his primary OS. And, I must admit, using DOS as your primary OS is a bit weird, for obvious reasons. JcN's comment asked what he thought was wrong with having DOS as a primary OS... it was a perfectly valid question.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 20:45 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
chemoautotroph Account Info
(Web Page)

I can't believe you would go off topic on a news subject such as this... you'ld think you could at least wait until the next post :(

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 15:05 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Frank A. Nothaft  Account Info

[The text of this article has been removed by a news editor due to violation of the acceptable use policy.]

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 17:52 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Morgan Davies  Account Info
(Web Page)

It would probably to best if you read the article and the guidelines once more. Swearing is most definately not allowed!

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 18:24 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
jrock7286  Account Info

I'm not sure exactly what it was he said (the comment was removed), but I do know that the guidelines say to refrain from using language you wouldn't hear on US network television. I have stated this before, but that guideline, in my opinion, needs to be altered because the words allowed on network television is greatly increasing (I will not post them here ;)

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 20:12 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
no_one_2000_  Account Info
(Web Page)

That is true, you can hear a lot more US network television now (even Nick used "dumbass.")
What I can't believe is the death threat. I didn't think people were really that crazy over stuff. At least, I'd hope, it was a joke, and not serious, even though, either way, it's still serious. I'm surprised that I missed that.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 21:21 GMT


¤
burntfuse  Account Info

DEATH THREAT???? There are more idiots in the world than I thought....

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 21:39 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ajaxhunter  Account Info

"a constructive method of discussion about news in the TI world"

If that is the intended purpose of the boards, then why would you need the use of currently censored language? 90% of the time that sort of language is simply used to put someone else down or to rant and flame unjustly against someone else.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 20:57 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Frank A. Nothaft  Account Info

[The text of this article has been removed by a news editor due to violation of the acceptable use policy.]

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 03:07 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Joey Gannon  Account Info
(Web Page)

It isn't just you, but I'll block that kind of stuff, too. You're doing exactly what nickd said not to.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 03:18 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
chemoautotroph Account Info
(Web Page)

Give it a rest already.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 17:58 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Memwaster  Account Info

well, it is my primary OS for programming. For some reason devpak8x doesn't work on win2k, and I am rather low in disk space, so my computer duel-boots into dos. (for most other things, I use win2k)

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 08:08 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Chivo  Account Info

There was a TI-86 ASM development DOS program I used which I got from here. It just would not work right under Windows XP. The source code was included, so I narrowed the problem down to one function call.

The problematic function (a DOS system call I think) takes a directory name as a string. It seems that the DOS/Win9x version of the function takes the directory string with or without a trailing backslash, but the WinNT/XP/2k version requires a backslash. The program didn't append a backslash at the end of the string, so the function (and therefore the program) failed in XP but not under 98.

devpac8x probably has a similar bug, so if you can get the source code to it and you're competent in C, you should look for a function that expects a directory name and fix the calls to it.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 18:41 GMT

Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
mike White Account Info

i fell the same also i somewhat think that there are programers that don't want to be part of the community and just want to be on the top 25 list. in some cases it is not the person's falt, maybe they just don't like haveing other people around. but i think that some of them don't want to have anything to do with the community.
MHPW

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 14:40 GMT

Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Maarten Zwartbol  Account Info
(Web Page)

Couldn't have said it better. On one site there are the programmers and on the other site the consumers who are most of times pretty young brats who feel better of themselves when people give them attention so they try to be notorious.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 14:46 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Bill_pike Account Info

The problem is that most non-programmers see the free services of programmers as a divine entitlement. Programmers who release their software for free ask only for respect and are instead berated by gamers for their games "sucking". Evan with my rather lackluster knowledge of 68k assembly, I do respect the developers and their creations that I could not hope to match. I think a way to limit the distribution of powerful code to only the club of people who can understand and respect it is for developers to only release the source code and stipulate in the license that the distribution of executable code is prohibited. Although I know this proposal will invite flames, It would require that users of powerful programs have at least some understanding of the means via which they function and of the genius of their creators.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 16:34 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Jiaqi Wu  Account Info

I really agree with you. I've been to a website of a person who has a list of flame mail and who is a very good programmer. People complain about how one of his games crashed their calculator.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 17:10 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
benryves  Account Info
(Web Page)

You guys are unlucky :(
Maybe my spam filter is also "Programmer flame" blocking, as most of my (very few) emails are very kind.
I even get friendly bug reports ;)
Then again, I've only been TI-programming for the last 2 years, and only actually releasing anything to the community for the last one and a half.
Now, Nick D had his rant, it's now time for mine -- please, please, any developers (this applies mainly to BASIC programmers) _think_ before releasing anything. The last thing we want is another quadratic equation solver or other tool that the calculator can already do for us. I'm serious: when I come here, I hate having to sort through all these useless tools.
I know I'm applying for some serious flaming here, but guys; if you really want to make a contribution, think out a good project first. These Physics equation programs, for example: not too different from a quadratic equation solver, but are actually useful in that they add functionality to the calculator. Even better, learn ASM and crack out some decent games. This will not only add some cool games and programs to our community, but will earn you much more respect than a program that blatently took you just five minutes to code. Think about it, please, for my sake and the sake of the community. You'll be doing yourself a favour.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 17:26 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
George Limpert  Account Info
(Web Page)

If developers went by your rules, I don't think the TI community would ever have any new programmers. Nobody, absolutely nobody, makes a great game or an extremely useful program as their first project. I'd prefer someone who wants to help the community but releases a program that's redundant over someone who has no interest in contributing to the community.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 20:06 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
killerB  Account Info
(Web Page)

I don't think he's saying that beginner programmers should not try and create any BASIC programs at all, but that they should only submit a file once they have created one that is truly beneficial to the community and worthy of a download.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 21:57 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Michael McElroy Account Info
(Web Page)

Exactly. I've got a few HUNDRED programs sitting on my calculator right now that I will probably never publish, simply because they wouldn't be useful to anyone but myself.

A good rule: Unless your friends find it useful, too, don't upload your program.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 22:44 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
BlackThunder  Account Info
(Web Page)

Hm... Would you consider TankWars (In V200 Basic Games), the first program I released to ticalc.org, to be "truly beneficial to the community and worthy of a download"? Just wondering...

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 22:45 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
KermMartian Account Info
(Web Page)

*troll* :)

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 23:20 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Drantin  Account Info

Or how about *my* first programs? (A number guessing game and a collection of algebra utilities(the number guessing game was slightly unique compared to other ones though...)) ...

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 23:38 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ben Cherry  Account Info
(Web Page)

I wonder, how many people made a number guessing game in BASIC as their first program. It was mine, and i copied mine from a friend with an 86 who was so excited that he wrote the code on the board before math class...

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 00:22 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
BlackThunder  Account Info
(Web Page)

I still remember how I started programming.

I borrowed an 85, no manual.
I returned the 85.
I got a 92, with manual.
I realized I could program on the 92.
I made a lot of programs, including Tic-Tac-Toe.
I borrowed an 85 again.
I realized I could program on the 85.
I made some random programs, some games, and a Quadratic Formula solver.
Someone told me they could program a REALLY cool game on my calculator.
That person tried to program a number guessing game.
He failed miserably.
I looked at the code, scrapped it, and made my own.
I decided to upload one of the games I made on my 85: Asteroids.

You probably are not too interested in the rest of the story, since it already includes a Quadratic Formula solver and a Number Guessing game.

Reply to this comment    23 January 2004, 15:55 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
mike White Account Info

i am a basic programer and i make hundreds of useless programs for my oun use(like inches to cm or a get key program) but i don't go and put every single one up it would be a waste of space (it would be nice and i would help but if ticalc could file through the files and get rid of all the old demos that the people never finished or all the usless programs that no one downlodes anymore, if you had the time otherwise i could just scroll over them, but i would help if i could).

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 22:49 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
benryves  Account Info
(Web Page)

Good idea.
That'd be nice...

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 16:25 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ben Cherry  Account Info
(Web Page)

perhaps (though it would be a very large amount of work) the files could be divided into more subcategories based on those that have been proven "good" programs, either by download rates or by actual testing of the programs. I dont think it would be fair to delete the programs completely, but it would help to filter out those that are not as good as others. Just an idea.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 00:25 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Matt Daubenmeyer  Account Info

yes, but even better then that, how about a rateing system i think that THAT would help people more then good Vs. Bad

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 01:46 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
BlackThunder  Account Info
(Web Page)

Yeah, a rating system would be WAY more accurate than just measuring downloads. You can't tell if it's good or not until you've actually played it.

Reply to this comment    23 January 2004, 15:56 GMT


¤
burntfuse  Account Info

That would be great!!! I'm tired of going through all the hundreds of identical BASIC programs (not that there aren't some good ones).

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 21:41 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
TheGreatOne  Account Info

Hmm.. I'm probably an exception then cause my first program went on to win an award.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 23:44 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ben Cherry  Account Info
(Web Page)

well, you are TheGreatOne, but for us thelesserones (we dont even get caps), we can't be expected to make an award winning program on our first try. :)

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 00:27 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
BlackThunder  Account Info
(Web Page)

O_o

Your account doesn't even exist, according to ticalc.org.

Reply to this comment    23 January 2004, 15:57 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Matt Daubenmeyer  Account Info

:-0 i wonder how that is

Reply to this comment    23 January 2004, 20:37 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Memwaster  Account Info

Another thing I find is you should check if ticalc.org already has it before even making it.

Even more importantly, don't make a program that does something TIOS already does (like a "BASIC OS")

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 08:11 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
ti_is_good_++  Account Info

There are some very useful solvers, though. For instance, I used string manipulation to find asymptotes of a function, which was definitely not trivial.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 18:26 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
benryves  Account Info
(Web Page)

You see, I don't have a problem with that at all.
It's just people recreating existing functions of the TIOS but with about 100x more inefficiency that drives me mad.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 21:14 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Michael O'Brien  Account Info
(Web Page)

I feel for you buddy. It has gotten to the point that for the past 2 years I've actually only downloaded ASM and C programs. It is uterly rediculous.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 23:04 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
TheGreatOne  Account Info

Yup, I've downloaded a whole 3 BASIC programs in my time and that was when I first got my calculator and didn't even know C\C++.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 23:46 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ben Cherry  Account Info
(Web Page)

the only time i ever downloaded basic programs was to look at the code and learn from it.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 00:29 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
benryves  Account Info
(Web Page)

...but that's not to say that I haven't downloaded some Basic programs before, either -- 'Quake 4' spent a merry month on my calculator, and the "Domesday" program that displays the day of the week based on the date, are two that I enjoyed. Now I just blank out when I see "TI-83 Plus BASIC program" - and I could be missing out, but can't be bothered to try anyway.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 08:13 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Ben Cherry  Account Info
(Web Page)

Its not that i think BASIC programs are inherently bad, as there are a large number of awesome programs written in BASIC, and many solvers and stuff too. BUT, it is a lot of work to wade through the stuff in the archives, and most of the BASIC stuff isnt screenshotted either. So i generally stick to the asm directories, especially for games. Also, now that i have a ti-89, its hard to find a solver program that actually is more than marginally useful to me. But when i had my ti-83, BASIC solvers definitely were useful, but i never dled them, i got them from siblings and friends.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 23:44 GMT


¤
burntfuse  Account Info

Same here...I rarely even look through the BASIC archives.

Reply to this comment    21 January 2004, 21:42 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
nolekid  Account Info

I assume you're talking about Patrick Davidson (http://pad.calc.org)

As others have said, the community is changing; but, more generally, technology is changing. The internet is more accessible to more people every day, and so comes along more ignorant idiots who think that just because you don't see anyones faces, that no one has emotion (and this is not a reference to no_one). People online are STILL people, and still get angry, scared, etc.

In addition to the internet growing, the TI market is growing. There are more teenagers, more math and science teachers requiring graphing calcs. So one kid gets a new calc, and finds out he can use it to play games (he might even be one of those ambitious ones that make their own games). With that one kid, 10 more want those games, and so get their own graph-links, and visit more calc websites. While I am part of the 10 other kids and realize the hard work of programming (even though I pursue pleasures other than Z80 ASM), most people do not, and think that programmers are just there to please. When people are not pleased, they insult; sometimes they even threat.

It's a sad world.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 17:30 GMT


It's a sad, sad time
bizpile  Account Info

The problem is that more and more people see the internet as a big anonymous world in which they can do anything without the fear of repercussion or consequence. Those people say and do things they would not do to offline, they think that right and wrong do not apply because the internet is not real. It is sad and I can only hope that people will learn to treat the Internet like the "real" world and start acting like their behavior has consequences.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 20:31 GMT

Re: It's a sad, sad time
Geek_Productions Account Info
(Web Page)

The Internet has (sadly) overtaken the real world for most kids these days. You can actually find almost anything from news to weather to communities of people sharing common interests and conversing about said interests on the Web. More people are using the Internet for more things and (my 2¢), because of the lack of face to face human interaction feel, that posts and e-mail don't have a connection to a person.

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 23:47 GMT


Re: It's a sad, sad time
Memwaster  Account Info

I shoot people online.... is this wrong?

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 11:38 GMT


Re: Re: It's a sad, sad time
no_one_2000_  Account Info
(Web Page)

In games, no, but you know what he meant.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 20:44 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
nyall Account Info
(Web Page)

I'll have to agree with this.

There have been times when I've considered asking the ticalc.org staff to delete all my programs from ticalc's archives and from then on I would update only to my site. Updates would be announced at the tigcc message board to people I respect.



The one and only Cheerio:
-Samuel S

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 22:16 GMT

Part 3: Return of the nickd
bordoni nils  Account Info
(Web Page)

I agree with everything you've said too, nickd.
But you know, people who respect the Ti community and ticalc staff are generally silent...
I cant say users have changed since i haven't been following ticalc's adventure since the begining but i think you are right, and this same problem has - I think - led ti-fr to its end.
Nickd, i think your article was really needed, and i think this was usefull to me too.

Sorry for what happened to you, by the way.(come and live in France, this kind of things don't (generally) happen)

Thanks ticalc

Reply to this comment    19 January 2004, 19:29 GMT

Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
Michael O'Brien  Account Info
(Web Page)

I agree with both you and nick. There is a cretain member at calcgames.org that is just as you descrbe. He thinks we are there to please him and he also has no (virtually at least) concept of respect. I feel the pain of you both. All we can do is stick together.

Reply to this comment    20 January 2004, 23:09 GMT


Re: Re: Irked and Chafed
joelt Account Info

I know exactly how you feel. Check out http://pub26.ezboard.com/ ftichessteamhqfrm5. showMessage?topicID=2465. topic

the last post. I put the newlines in there so the spaces would be easier to see.

Reply to this comment    25 January 2004, 06:42 GMT

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