Re: TI 92 V.S. HP 48GX, which one is better?


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Re: TI 92 V.S. HP 48GX, which one is better?



Steve J Brother wrote:


> I actually got both calculators, TI-92 and HP-48GX, but I use the TI-92
> more than I use the Hewlett Packard. I just find it easier to use than
> the HP. TI-92 can solve things symbolically whereas the HP solves things
> numerically.


The Hp-48 has a LIMITED symbolic Calculus capability built in.  In the
nearly six years since it was released, a number of programs that try
(pretty well) to make up the "symbolic calculus gap" (like ALGB).  The
Hp also has a fairly capable algebraic solver, further enhanced by some
recent machine language replacements.


>  Just try to integrate an indefinite integral like
> (X+3)/(X^2+2x+1) in the HP, it would be first easier to write it in the
> EQUATION WRITER. Then execute it, then collect, collect, collect, etc.
>
> Get the picture??


Yes, you obviously haven't spent a great deal of time with the Hp-48.
The EQUATION WRITER is not the only way to enter equations.  The Hp-48
could crunch that integral fairly easily with the ALGB library loaded.
Don't forget, the basic routines for the Hp-48 ROM are designed for
working professionals, who have little need to do classroom exercise
symbolic integrals.  But becuase the Hp-48 is so darn programmable
(assembly and higher level languages like SYSRPL, as well as C--yes, C),
some bright boys figured out how to make it work.


> Okay the pros of the TI:
>
> The TI is very easy to use, whereas the HP is very complex and
> confusing. The TI-92 would zip right through a simple equation,
> including calculus equation like differential or integrating, then give
> you the answer. Like I said before, the TI can solve thing symbolically
> whereas the HP solves them numerically.


Like I said before, you obviously have missed a great deal about the
Hp-48!!  You are confusing easy and complex with eweak and powerful.
The Hp-48 simply offers ten time the functionality of the Ti-92, so yes,
it is a lot to get a ahndle on.  You can learn about all you need to
from a Ti-92 in an hour.  But, then again, thats all there IS to learn
about the Ti-92.


>Mind you, sometimes the TI-92
> does give you weird answers and you do have to fiddle around with it to
> come to a simple solution, but at least it does a better job than the
> HP.


Sounds amazingly like you need to do problem 7 without your calc teacher
thinking you didn't do it yourself.


> The TI-92 has an Alphanumeric keyboard whereas the HP doesn't. HP is
> still like an old style calculator with numbers and function keys and
> its very hard to type.


Which is why the Hp-48 is accepted on almost all college entrance exams
and the Ti-92 isn't.


>The common functions are right there on the
> keypad, but majority of the functions are accessible by a pulldown menu
> or all functions can be accessed popup catalog.


The Hp-48 also has more functions directly acessible from the keyboard.


>HP also has popup menus
> for some functions like to integrate and differentiate, but it is still
> complicated to use, and you still need to put in limits even though it
> said it can evaluate an equations symbolically.


No argument there, but a number of replacement programs (which fit quite
nicely into the roomy 128k RAM) make up for that.  You can even write
(its been done) a small program to indefinate integrate  automatically.
This is left as an exercise to the reader.


> TI also has an option called "Pretty Print." If I put in 1/2 which is a
> half, the TI can displays 1/2. HP, on the other hand, would display
> ".5".  If I put in 1/2 + 1/4, the TI would return 3/4. HP would display
> ".75". So you need the decimal equivalent and not the pretty print? No
> problem! TI has a function key for approximation, and it WILL display
> the answer in a decimal form.


Again, wrong.  The Hp-48 can show on the stack fractions out of the box,
and only automatically simplifies the fractions if you set a flag to.
Th Hp-48 can also do "pretty print" with a few add on programs (for
those counting, the two programs, ALGB, for calc, and JAVA, for pretty
print, still leave the Hp-48 more memory than the Ti-92 COMES with).




Also, the Hp-48 doesn't approximate like Ti's or casios.  It gives the
exact answer based upon what is on the stack.  Try this:  Take the
square root of 2 on a Ti.  Then square it.  You get 2, right?  Which is
what you should expect if you had just sqaured the square root of 2.
But you didn't!!  The square root of 2 is infinite in decimals; the Ti
must have guessed that the eleven or so number decimal point leads to
2.  Hmmm.... what else does the Ti guess on....?


>  The TI manual book, however, is mediocre. It's good and you can follow
> it very easily, but it doesn't go completely in depth on some examples
> in the programming of the TI. The HP??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Forget it,
> dude!! The manual IS a frigging book, about some 400 or more pages. And
> its comes with two books. If you want more technical details and how to
> program the HP, you have to order $50 dollars more and you get two more
> volumes on the HP.


Geez Louise, get your facts straight Bubba!!  Yes, the Hp-48 has a 400
page manual.  It also has about TEN TIMES the built in functions the
Ti-92 has, so you need a bigger book (FACT:  the Ti-92 has 356 commands,
according to Appendix A of the manual.  Not all Ti-92 commands are
unqiue; for example, the Ti-92 has 11 programming END statements--ENDIF,
ENDWHILE, END etc.  The Hp-48 has over 2000 commands, all of which are
unique).


The second (and only) book on programming is only $22.  For that, and
$30, you get the advanced programming manual AND a computer cable.  Last
time I checked, Ti-PC cables alone from Ti cost $50.




> Okay, that a pro, here some cons.
>
> TI-92 is new out in the market. It does have some support since TI's
> been out for a while, but the TI-92 is not very compatible with the
> other calculators. Then again, neither is the HP48 with the lesser
> models. TI-92 so far as I know of doesn't have any way of expanding like
> the HP does although there has been rumors of an empty socket in the
> back of the TI which possibly may be able an expansion chip.


In the first YEAR the Hp-48SX came out (1991), it produced more software
(due to flexible and powerful programming) than the Ti-92 and the Ti-85
have combined to date.  Face it, the Ti-92 is not being supported with
user developed software.  It will be years before the Ti-92 software
base makes up for what the Hp-48 has built in.  The current Hp-48
program base on the internet exceeds 40 Megs.


>Now this is
> where the HP makes up for its weakness. In the top of the HP, you have
> two slots for expansion cards that you can put into it like extra
> memory, or specialized programs for chemistry, engineering, etc., plus
> the fact its been out in the market for a long time. HP has more
> functions than the TI-92, like numerically be able to solve differential
> equations, whereas you need to make a program (or download one) for the
> TI. The HP has more programming functions than the TI, making it more
> flexible to program the HP. I've been told, but I can't confirm yet,
> that the HP has a built-in assembler.


The Hp-48 can execute any assembler code written for it, without any
cheezy backdoor interface shell.  The assembly routines do need to be
compiled either on the Hp with a special compiler, or a PC.




> I may have missed a few things but if you just need one to get by in
> calculus and physics, I bet on the TI92. IF you like gadgets and gizmos
> and don't mind wasting your time, and believe me you will, then go get
> the HP.


In calculus, yes, the Ti-92 will do your hoemework for you, the Hp-48
lags the ti-92 there.  In Physics, the Hp-48 built in units and multiple
equation solvers, as well as the EQUATION LIBRARY, do to the Ti-92 what
my baby does to diapers when fed spicy meatballs.  There is no way the
Ti-92 could possibly out do the Hp-48 for physics or hardcore
engineering classes.


> Wanna see a comparison??
>
> First let me clarify one thing: the < > means a function key on both
> calculators. If I say for example <sin>, its the sine key function.
>
> Remember that integration I said before?? All I typed was (Integration
> symbol)  ((x+1)/(x^2+2x+1), x) <enter> and the rest is history
>
> The HP?? To integrate you need the boundaries. It will not calculate
> without them. In Equation, <right upshift> Integrate, zero (required),
> <Right Arrow>, <alpha> x (required), <Right Arrow>, <right upshift> ( ),
> <alpha> x + 1, <Right Arrow>, /, <alpha> x <y^x> 2 + 2 <alpha> x + 1,
> <Right Arrow>, <Right Arrow>, <alpha> x, <enter>, <eval>, <Right
> upArrow>, <Colct>, <Colct>, <eval>, <eval>, <eval>. etc.
> Even If you use the popup symbolic menu to solve this equation, it will
> save time typing out the equation, but the answer is the same.


Again, you can type this equation directly into the Hp-48, just use the
'' delimeters.  Read the manual!!


> TI Answer:  Ln(|x+1|) - 2 / (x+1)
> HP Answer:  (By equation writer and symbolic menu for integration)
> Integrate, 0, x, INV (1+x^2+2*x)*x + INV             (1+x^2+2*x),x).
> After fiddling around with it for 5 minutes, I gave up.


O.k, so your definition of doing an integral is the B.S. format your
teacher wants?!  Got me there!  Hps weren't made to be a crutch to float
through calc I on.  If you wan't something that can do most of that, and
a hell of a lot more, get the Hp-48.  I promise, when you get done with
calc class, you can purge the calculus programs and load up a neat game.


> Funny thing is, it's not that much of a complicated equation. I would
> expect problems if I try to integrate the arc tangent on the HP, but
> this is ridiculous! This should be able to be solved by partial
> fractions / fraction decomposition and maybe even by parts and the TI
> comes through every time.


Partial Fraction decomposition is a relatively simple prospect with the
right algorithm.  Programs to do this largely classroom exercise have
been available for the Hp-48 for years.  ALGB also can do this one
natively, no problem.


> I hope I helped you out dude.
> Steve


Accurate/complete information is always more helpful, dude.  Seriously,
you spent $200 for the Hp-48, and don't know jack about it!!  Try
checking out comp.sys.hp-48, and get some help with the thing.  And
please be sure of your facts before posting; you have both right there,
and a real chance to provide objective information.  Just because the hp
is "too hard"  (quick--get me a hanky for the waaaaaah story) doesn't
mean it isn't capable.


And when you get right down to it, it isn't that hard to use!
<pre>
--
Mark Wilson


"You see me now a veteran
of a thousand psychic wars..."
</pre>


References: