cool wish it worked w/the 89

TI-89/92/92+ use extremely different languages than the mainstream TI-82/83/83+/85/86. It is not possible (without knowledge of the language) to create TIMM for the TI-89.

-Sherman Cahal
-http://www.cahaltech.com

Well I am trying to learn C and not to much success. I do realize that this has nothing to do with the subject, but, I was going to make a program that will allow a TI-89 to communicate with a diffrent calculator. If any has any comments about this please reply to this. Im not shure itz possible but i think that is should be. All the things you can do with a TI-89, you should be able to talk to a TI-82 with a TI-89. Maybe with a TSR? well if anybody anows where a GOOD C programming page is pleaze E-Mail me at the webpage above or at
dustinkimble_1@hotmail.com
Thankz for reading this all who have.
Dustin Kimble

Yeah, it's certainly possible to have a 89 to 8X linking program, and it would be cool. However, you're setting your sights too high for a first project. You're just bound to be disappointed if you try to learn C by starting with this program. It would require lots of research into TI's link protocols, knowledge of how to control the link port manually, research into TI's file formats, and tons of other stuff.

If you really want to learn C, start small. Create a "Hello World" program. Then make a little program that responds to keypresses or something. Later work up to maybe a small, simple game like Space Invaders. Once you've done that, THEN you can start thinking about making a big, complicated program.

Trust me. Learning C does not start with making a ground-breaking, innovative, "Cool" program. Learning C starts with making a program that will compile and run without crashing. Once you've learned how to make simple programs, though, the rest is just a matter of time (and reading the documentation).

As for good C programming pages, the best you will be able to find are at tigcc.ticalc.org in the links section. My advice: Download and read some source, and READ THE TIGCCLIB DOCUMENTATION! 99.7238% of common TI programming questions are answered there.

What really would be nice are emulators for the Z80 calcs on 89/92+. Then you could use all types of ASM programs. Is this possible?

Yeah, it would be nice, and I suppose it's technically possible, but it wouldn't be any good for games because it would be WAYYYYY too slow. Even though the 68000 in the 89 is faster than the Z80 in the other calcs, it's just not fast enough to do fast emulation. For comparison: My Pentium 166 can't emulate the 89 at full speed, and it is 16 times faster (in pure clock speed, which isn't the whole story anyway). For the 89 to emulate the other calcs well, I think it would have to be at least 20X faster. Not to mention the technical problems involved in getting the screen, keyboard, and link to work correctly. AND you would have to store an entire TI-86 ROM in memory if you wanted to emulate one. I'm not sure there's enough room (and you'd need games on top of that!) So it's really not feasable to have a Z80 emulator on the TI-89. I do have some ideas about VTI on my Compaq iPAQ pocket PC, however :-)

Well, what about the TSR idea? I think that would be the most succesful way but probabaly the hardest. Im not shure if that possible but im shure that it is.(I know that made no scence.) What is the best language for proggraming as fas as functions and abilities and ease of learning goes? some people use 68000K others use ASM and others use C.

I highly recommend C, it's much easier to learn than than ASM (IMHO), so it's much better for programmers who are just starting out. C programs have all the capabilities of ASM programs, they're not limited at all.

About the TSR, you don't need a TSR to link with an 82. It would make more sense to have a program that you could run that would let you select some 82 files to transfer, and then transfer them.

Back on the subject of first projects in C, though, I think you'd better start with something smaller than this. Really, try programming something VERY small and simple first, just to get the hang of it. You'll have plenty of time later after you learn C to program all the TSRs and calc-linking programs you want. Make yourself a tic-tac-toe game or something first.

Knowledge of C doesn't just jump into your head when you start to program a TSR. Do you know how to accept keyboard input? Display a string on the screen? Display an integer variable on the screen? Use if statements, for loops, and arrays? If you try to start out with a TSR, little tiny stuff like that will keep tripping you up, and you'll get frustrated because you can't program your TSR. START SIMPLE! If you start small, you'll learn that stuff gradually, and it'll become easy.

Well i was just thinking about the TSR for linking capibilites. Instead of having to have a program do it have the calc think that is is transfering a TI-89 document. That where you could call this from basic programs like:
:Get A
:Get B
:Send C
You know where a TI-89 will realize that is is a ti-89
Ahhhhh, I dont know how to explain it.

I just thought it would be neat if someone could call 82 variables from a 89.

THE BEST WEBSITE FOR LEARNING C IS:
http://www.technoplaza.net

Thats where i started off learning C, then i made Alien Invasion. Yeah might not be a good idea to start big cause you get bad code and then youll get too lazy to go back and change it :P

- Jason Ho

I know this off-topic, but... does anyone know of a good website for learing C/C++ for the PC?

I used this site. Click the link above.

onefastfiveoh

About the 89->other calculator, Dan Englender at TCPA (web site) was (is?) working on a program called NECalc to do this exact same thing....

Actually, that was/is Scott Dial.

Grrr... TIMM restricts the TI-86 program files to 6000 bytes when assembly files are actually limited to 9000 bytes. But if they wanted a full video, all they have to do is save the data in a string and load it from there in the program. Strings are limited to 65535 bytes (minus the length word at the begining). it would be real nice to have 65000 bytes of a video...

In regards to comments in the newsarticle I don't expect the number of assembly programs to decrease, but I do expect the ratio of asm to C to decrease. This is sad.

Also with C there is a certain dependance on premade algorythms. Seriously what percentage of c programmers who use sprites understand how the canned sprite routines that come with tigcc work? And people scream at Zeljko Juric (the poor man) for faster algorythms. One example being that they want a faster line drawing routine.


-Samue

I really amire those who work in C. They have done many things for the 68k calculators. However, I admire those who program in 68k more. They are the pioneers and are not lazy in the least(I'm not saying C programmers are lazy!). The group I amire most, though, are those who struggled with ASM to make C possible for the 89/92+. Hooray for the Doors team (a special thank-you to Zeljko)! We really cannot appreciate them enough!

What's wrong with laziness?

"It was pure laziness...Writing programs was a big drag -- you had to have enormous detail and deal with things you shouldn't have to. So I wanted to make it easier." -- John Backus, on the development of FORTRAN

Could you imagine how little software there would be today if Backus wanted to do everything the hard way?

There is always a disadvantage to everything. But I have to disagree with Eric's opinion that TI might make C programs not work any more, while assembly programs would still work fine. If there is another incompatiblity issue (like the HW1/HW2 and AMS 1.05/2.03 ones), assembly programs will be the first to get hit. C programs could be recompiled with a different version of the library. And if, for example, TI changed the calling convention for TIOS functions in some way (which can't happen anyway), assembly programs would need really major changes, while C programs can still work if recompiled with a new compiler and library. Anyway, that's just my opinion, and I can't say I'm not biased. The maintainance issue is indeed a problem; but the same applies, for example, to VTI. And if anyone remembers: The compiler itself had been more or less given up by Jean Canazzi. Maybe another maintainer can be found if one is needed.

For everyone who actually wants to read the interview; I made one little mistake: Of course my first program wasn't a calculator program; I though the question was about the first calculator program I wrote. Sorry about the confusion this may cause.

That stuff about ti making c programs not work is not an opinion as much as random speculation.

I find the comments about C killing assembly really interesting. I'll bet in the 1950s and 60s, with high level computer languages like COBOL and FORTRAN just being developed, many early computer programmers made similar arguments. Let's face it, high level programming languages are a necessary thing for any real software development. Without them, concepts such as object orientation and abstract data types would not exist. In my opinion, being able to use C for calculator programming will drastically increase the quality and quantity of available software. C is obviously much easier to use, meaning that really good software can be developed much more quickly and easily than it could ever be in pure assembly. Maybe this also means that some less skilled programmers will be able to easily develop "bad" software, but it is really so terrible to allow a larger number of people to exploit the power of their calculators without having to learn all of the intricacies of 68k assembly? It seems to me that the availability of C will only make the 89 and 92 more popular and encourage development for them.

As for the idea that TI will mysteriously disable the ability to program in C for calculators, this just doesn't make sense. The key problem with this idea is that C programs are compiled into assembly. If TI makes them not work, most, if not all pure assembly programs also won't work.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for those who have the time and skills to develop really good assembly programs. I realize that in some situations assembly is the best (or only possible) language to use. But I also think that we must accept C as simply a better way to develop most calculator software.