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Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Posted by Nick on 13 June 2000, 03:47 GMT

Alright... many (many) people have presented this idea on our comment boards, on our email lists, on IRC, in emails to me, as news items on here, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Now, it looks as if a group of people are going to make a serious, gung-ho attempt at it.

François Goldgewicht, Jean Canazzi (the author of Bigdyna), and Niklas Brunlid (former staff and the author of Prosit) are looking for assistance in the development of a new TI-OS for the 89 and possibly even the 92 Plus. Below, you will find an ICQ chat I had with François today - it addresses some initial questions I had. My only concern is TI adapting their hardware to not accept such a ROM, but ... yeah. Email François if you're a skilled 68K ASM programmer and you'd like to join the project.

Trollou 6/12/200 1:44 PM hi

i have something to ask u :)

BlueCalx 6/12/200 1:44 PM shoot

Trollou 6/12/200 1:46 PM i have a project : i would like to make a rom.
i already studied this and i am sure that's
possible. this would be in open source, etc.

i would like to create a programers group,
international coders so i just would like u to
post a news in order to help me :)

BlueCalx 6/12/200 1:47 PM hrm.. impressive :-)

Trollou 6/12/200 1:50 PM it's simple... every coder of the ti-fr group
is ready (almost :) )

the project is xplained on ti-fr home page
(use babelfish to transalte :) )

the mail is : webmaster@ti-fr.org
(name : François Goldgewicht)

thx

Trollou 6/12/200 1:52 PM u can put the name "jean canazzi" (author of
bigdyna)

BlueCalx 6/12/200 1:53 PM ok

Trollou 6/12/200 1:58 PM other name : niklas brunlid

BlueCalx 6/12/200 1:58 PM wow... is this intended for math and stuff
too, or just gaming compatibility?

Trollou 6/12/200 2:05 PM everything : it will replace the tios :)

BlueCalx 6/12/200 2:08 PM okay....
if you make it so the math functions are just
as madly elite, then i'll definitely post :)
(me being the math geek that i am)

Trollou 6/12/200 2:09 PM :)

Trollou 6/12/200 2:13 PM at a fisrt time it would be just a big program
who stands with the tios...
in oder to have maths functions etc.

but after we could make uour own types
(stack...)

BlueCalx 6/12/200 2:14 PM yeah....
i'll be back later, i'm going to take a
shower.

Trollou 6/12/200 3:06 PM look at ti-fr and go to the comments : u'll
see the enthousiasm of the frenchies :)
 


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Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
jestbsemple  Account Info

If you guys just want faster calcs, then why don't you OVERCLOCK them? The menus go great on overclocked calcs. :-)

     13 June 2000, 05:25 GMT


Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Cavan Carroll  Account Info
(Web Page)

HACK AMS 2.01 OR 2.02!
If you have either one, please send it to me.
They can't sue because they already denied it's theirs.

     14 June 2000, 18:37 GMT

Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

Imagine how many people would create their own OS if they just could. Why don't you/we/whoever concentrate first on enabling the upload of another OS, and then everyone could program their own parts, using C, ASM, or Pascal. If everything is kept open source, the result would be a whole new (much better) OS.

     13 June 2000, 05:40 GMT


Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Xavier de Boysson  Account Info

I didn't see any rules about creating asm prog.
we've already modified the flash-rom (eg: Archive utility ). They didn't stop us...this would just a more advanced program. they can't really do anything..

     13 June 2000, 05:53 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Juan Corral  Account Info
(Web Page)

In case you've been in a cave for the past year or so, TI has blocked the usage of ROM modifing programs with every update to their hardware/software.

     13 June 2000, 06:01 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Xavier de Boysson  Account Info

ya but you know...i'm a bit stupid

     13 June 2000, 06:11 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Xavier de Boysson  Account Info

so you program cool stuff for ti-81 ?
cool games like tic tac toe.

I'm impressed,really !

     13 June 2000, 06:16 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

Come on! Do we have to start this crap again?!

     13 June 2000, 06:26 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Xavier de Boysson  Account Info

????

     13 June 2000, 06:32 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

In about every thread that gets a little longer, people start flaming each other after a while. I don't think Juan has anything to do with TI-81 programming, so I consider that an offensive post. I do believe that Juan can speak for himself (duh!), but I just wanted this to stop as soon as possible, because I expected more to come (especially when different people start taking sides).

     13 June 2000, 07:02 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Juan Corral  Account Info
(Web Page)

WTF are you talking about?

     13 June 2000, 06:50 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
MathJMendl  Account Info
(Web Page)

True, but they can't stop us from modifying AMS 1.00 calcs. Plus, for each time they've made new limits, people have beaten them! Hack, counterhack.

     13 June 2000, 09:04 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
SabreEve  Account Info

I've got an Idea, lets hack their loading program. You know, the one that loads the Os in the first place? that's got to have the encription code, plus, it has the loading code needed. It's probably a pipedream, though, but hack the os-loader to load the new os, and then, POW! new OS (or better yet, hack it so it loads windows! >:)

     16 June 2000, 05:58 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

Read the Assembly-89 mailing list. Writing to the Flash ROM is only possible using a trick that works with the garbage collection message, is extremely messy, can only be done in huge blocks, and can screw up your calc forever (e.g.: boot area). Things that are developed now will definitely not work for HW3 when it comes out. Just think about the harm this would do to all those little ignorant users when they download and install the new OS on incompatible calcs. It wouldn't just be another program that comes out, but instead a serious threat to all users.

Where we should start instead is a new shell that runs constantly and doesn't use any TIOS stuff, not even variables or linking capabilities. Thereby it would effectively replace the existing OS. Based on that, you could develop a GUI and other programs. Once it becomes possible, it will be very easy to port this to a Flash OS, and all programs written for it would still work.

     13 June 2000, 06:22 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Xavier de Boysson  Account Info

i can't see myself programming any big prg without using at least a romcall. this is gonna take age to build up...




Zaz

     13 June 2000, 06:32 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

How else would a separate OS work?

     13 June 2000, 06:41 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Scott Dial
(Web Page)

> Writing to the Flash ROM is only possible using a trick that works with the garbage collection message, is extremely messy

And I wouldn't be suprised that this method has been "fixed" in AMS v2.04. TI is not stupid, I am sure they have read how it is done off of the a89 mailing list. The flaw sounds as if it is easy to be rewrote to not leave the protection turned off.

     13 June 2000, 06:36 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

You could downgrade your AMS and then install the new OS. But that's not the point. TI would just release another hardware version sometime.

     13 June 2000, 06:48 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Zeljko Juric  Account Info
(Web Page)

Yes, it IS "fixed" in AMS v2.04. And TI really don't need to read mailing lists nor any other discussions to discover how current "unprotections" work. It is enough to analyse the "unprotection" program. HW2 patch is enough short program that every experienced programmer can disasemble it to see how it works. For example, disasembling it to see how it works took only 20 minutes when I tried it (including conclusion how it works). And I expect that TI programmers are surely more experiended that me...

     13 June 2000, 07:48 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
JaggedFlame

So is it possible there would be a new version for 2.04, or no?

     13 June 2000, 21:33 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Zeljko Juric  Account Info
(Web Page)

So far, it seems that it is not possible to break the protection on AMS 2.04. More precise, it seems that there is no enough "vunrable" places in this version of AMS...

     14 June 2000, 11:01 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Zeljko Juric  Account Info
(Web Page)

Oh, I need to demant myself. After more detailed looking, it seems that AMS 2.04 even have more "loopholes" for protection breaking than AMS 2.03. TI is really more stupid than I expected...

     15 June 2000, 10:33 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
MathJMendl  Account Info
(Web Page)

AHHHHHHHHH!! HW3, please don't mention such things! I thought that HW2 was a one-time thing...it would be really bad if it happens again. TI is partitioning the TI-89 community.

     13 June 2000, 09:08 GMT

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

If it ever came out, even a boycott wouldn't work. If you are a student, you don't care about games or hand-made OSs at first. You care about math.

     13 June 2000, 23:34 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:Poll:How many Re:'s can fit on a line??
Rgb9000  Account Info

"TI is partitioning the TI-89 community."

Quite observant on your part. It's a little tactic called:DIVIDE AND CONQUER

By dividing our ranks, WE now take 2wice as long to develop games, to force compatability. We are also taking time we could be using to make games to make programs JUST to get games to work! (doorsos HW2 patch)
Alas, i sometimes envy the TI86 users, they have no need for shells or libraries.
Maybe We need to program more total noshell ams programs.

     15 June 2000, 21:49 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:Poll:How many Re:'s can fit on a line??
Jeff Meister  Account Info

Most good games don't need libraries. Phoenix and Tanks both need no libraries, but they need DoorsOS and DoorsOS needs libraries. TI-Chess doesn't need any, and can be run on nostub. There you have it, the 3 best, and in my opinion, the only 3 good (except maybe BoulderDash) games for the TI-89.

- Jeff

     15 June 2000, 22:48 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
EvanMath

The major problem with making a shell that runs independant of TIOS is memory. The calc has 2M of ROM, 1.3M of which is used by TIOS. The whole point of making a separate ROM is to salvage this memory.

     14 June 2000, 01:41 GMT


Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sock It To 'Em: New TI-OS?
Sebastian Reichelt  Account Info
(Web Page)

We would just have to limit it to the basics at first. You can always archive a big part of it, so space wouldn't matter that much (provided you don't load huge games on your calc).

I was kind of enthusiastic at first, but on second thought, this whole project seems almost ridiculous. I don't want to offend anybody, but it seems that we are taking too large steps. Let's make our own little independent OS first, then add math capabilities to it as an add-on, and then we can try to make it a Flash App. And if anyone cracks the checksum, which I don't support, we could make it a primary OS. How about it?

Patiently waiting for the SDK...

     14 June 2000, 03:40 GMT

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